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| Royalties, subscriptions and SR-EL update |
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Message posted at 08/12/2009, 17:36:27 PM by Warrenpricephotography |
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| Originally posted by Stuartkey: |
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| Quoted Message: [quote]And, once you are exclusive ... what will you do with that portfolio when rates are dropped for exclusives? |
Stop uploading and disable images as quickly as possible in accordance with the sites terms & conditions. :)
[/quote]
Just shutdown? As an exclusive, would you be able to upload at another site? Would that completely elimanate the microstock industry ... if everyone chose that option?
I wonder ...... |
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Nikon, Canon and Panasonic cameras; Nikon, Canon and Tokina ...
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Uploaded files:876 | Total Sales: 693
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Message posted at 08/12/2009, 18:27:59 PM by Metering |
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I just recently started uploading images as "exclusive image", but now I'm thinking this may have been a big mistake. DT does not seem to value the image as exclusive, which makes it probably more profitable to have that image on multiple sites.
Hurray for all of you who are exclusive to DT, this looks like a great deal for you! (for now anyways). |
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Uploaded files:0 | Total Sales: 223
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Message edited at 08/12/2009, 18:37:25 PM by Clearviewstock |
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question
Subs of higher level images will count as mulitple downloads.
Is that in regards to number of downloads for the image as well as in terms of credits earnt?
not sure of figures of the top of my head, but say an image that has 21 downloads gets a subs purchase will that image then show as 22 or 23 downloads ? |
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Sony a900, Carl Zeiss Lenses, Various lights and studio equi...
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Uploaded files:3959 | Total Sales: 14046
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Message posted at 08/12/2009, 18:50:31 PM by Micspix |
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I'm on the fence with this change.
I used to be an exclusive photographer here and then I decided to join an "art site" and sell some of my artistic images through the "art site." These are images that absolutely would not be accepted here because they are absolutely not stock worthy.
This decision precluded my staying exclusive with DT, although all the images that I have in my portfolio with DT are exclusive to this site. So I cancelled my exclusivity with DT, and although all my images in my portfolio here remain exclusive, I, as a photographer, am not exclusive.
I'm definitely not happy that my exclusive images are taking such a hit percentage wise. Although I am very happy with the increase in subscription download prices. I will wait to see if it all balances out.
I have a fairly good download ratio per image at this point, and DT has always been very good to me, however, I really wish that DT staff would reconsider their realignment of exclusive image price percentages and raise them back up to where they were before. It was a good incentive to keep the images exclusive to this site and not spread theem through several sites.
Thanks for your consideration in this matter. |
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Uploaded files:407 | Total Sales: 2686
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Message posted at 08/12/2009, 20:05:03 PM by Afagundes |
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I remember Serban said that they were thinking about decreasing the comissions so that DT could invest more in advertising therefore increasing our sales.
I hope this happens, that would make everibody happy, I think.
Anyway, I am very happy with the subscription price increase for higher lever images, even though I still think high resolution downloads should also be more expensive. Maybe could use the same strategy, they could count as multiple downloads.
Anyway, it has been a good month for me, probably will be my Second Best Month Ever, and thats only because its going to be very hard to beat April that had 4 P-EL downloads. |
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Canon EOS 5D Mark II
Canon EF 17-40mm USM f/4L
Canon EF 24...
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Uploaded files:4182 | Total Sales: 8479
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Message posted at 08/12/2009, 20:14:06 PM by Marilynv |
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| Originally posted by Martinedegraaf: |
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Quoted Message:
The only thing that I am missing in this update is that additional formats still can be downloaded for 1 subscription-count. As it is priced double in the credit-structure, it would not be unlogical to let it count at least as a double sub, too.
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I also agree that additional formats, i.e. vectors, should be sold for more than just one subscription price/count. I sell quite a few vectors at one subscription credit. This just is too little as vectors can be enlarged to any size. :(
Thanks for listening Dreamstime.
Best regards,
Marilynv |
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Uploaded files:1108 | Total Sales: 9542
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Message edited at 08/12/2009, 21:22:39 PM by Py2000 |
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I think most people agree that additional formats should be worth more, even for subscription sales. Maybe additional formats can follow SR-EL 's price model and contributors can set custom prices? |
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Canon 7D, Sigma 30mm, Canon 50mm, Canon 85mm, Canon 10-22, C...
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Uploaded files:478 | Total Sales: 3751
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Message posted at 08/12/2009, 21:22:25 PM by Irisangel |
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I am missing the point of exclusivity. It makes no sense that certain sites reward this with a higher commission, How much of an impact does this have on which images a buyer downloads. Unless the buyer wants to use an image as a company logo that they plan to designate as a trademark, they can purchase an extended license and be done with it. This whole thing is confusing me. An exclusive image can have 100 Dls, then someone buys the rights, does that mean that the 100 other people who already downloaded the image can no longer use the image on their website or company letterhead ? Will they all of a sudden be subject to copyright infringement? I simply do not understand this concept. |
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Canon Eos 400D, Samsung S850( always with me) trip...
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Uploaded files:2502 | Total Sales: 13474
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Message edited at 08/12/2009, 22:15:18 PM by Clearviewstock |
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ok I did some stats, which obvisously would be different for everyone, but here they are for me. (note I dont have any exclusive images and do not sell SR-EL licences)
last 200 sales - (july 16 to now, so just under a month, my earnings have been relatively consistent for the last 12 months so for me a reasonable representation of the longer term trend).
sales - 200
lvl 1 - 100
lvl 2 - 67
lvl 3 - 23
lvl 4 - 10
of this
ppd = 129, subs = 71
subs sales that were lvl 3 or 4 images = 7
overall earnings / commission to me
current system $347.22
new system $248.59
difference to me -$98.62
basically I lose $101.07 in ppd commissions but this is offset by the new subs commisions were I gained a whole $2.45. Overall this is a 28.5% pay cut.
Now I've reread the original post a dozen times but must be missing something here because in original post "We expect most of you to continue to experience BMEs"
I have just been told that my pay has been cut almost 30%, I dont see how it is likely.
also in original post "We hope you'll find these changes fair"
You've cut my earnings ~30% or around $110 month. which you offset by an increase in earnings on the subs (~1% of total earnings). Please, how should I find this fair? (like I said I must be missing something here because to me fair is win-win and I cant see it)
Further down
"Don't rush to say it's a big disappointment just because you check the difference for level 1 files."
I have worked on downloads and included levels. But basically an image needs to hit level 5 to get the same % commission a current level 1 image. I have 3200 images which is a mix of level 1-4 but no level 5's. For me it is a pay cut for every image on ppd sales.
"Check the Excel archives and see how many level 2-5 files you had one year ago and how many you have today. Then see how many downloads you have from those files. You shouldn't count files but downloads"
Yes my images will continue to rise in the next year, if I am lucky 1 or 2 may reach lvl 5 and earn their current % commision. However I am more interested in $ than % :). So after calculating trends on my portfolio and based on current prices, very simply my current images will still not earn me as much in one years time as they do now. Sorry but the increase in subs doesnt even come close to the loss in ppd $ (even after a years growth in levels).
"Only 5 downloads are required today and there will be less in the future (oops). Remember my previous statements where I was explaining how subscriptions play an active role within our pricing system. Your patience paid off and these count as extra downloads now, while helping them achieve the next level"
as already mentioned, for me, the increase in subs doesnt come even close to the loss in ppd (the net gain is only about 2.5% of the net loss). Increasing the level does increase the gain and reduce the loss but not close to enough and certainly doesn't cause an increase (in comparison to today$).
"we correlate it with our future credits 2009 launch (oops again)"
for me this will have to be 145.65% increase in the cost of credits to stay where I am today. Not sure how likely this is?
"Don't expect to earn a fortune over night and don't think you will lose either. As you can see above, we continue to provide the highest royalties and we'll continue to take care of our contributors."
Very simply, I cant see how I will not lose, and lose in what to me, is in big way. Dreamstime is one of the few sites where, (for want of a better term) I have never felt like I've been screwed. The one time I had my doubts you showed me that I had not and that all was good.
I ask that you do so again, and show me what I am missing as this really doesnt look good to me. I cannot see how my current collection of images will ever earn as much as they do now (except perhaps after mulitple credit price increases).
Regards
Phil
write your text herewrite your text herewrite your text here |
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Sony a900, Carl Zeiss Lenses, Various lights and studio equi...
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Uploaded files:3959 | Total Sales: 14046
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Message posted at 08/12/2009, 21:54:46 PM by Irisangel |
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Thanks Phil, excellent!!!! I understand that Math. You explained it very well. I just had a weird thought, since, we the contributors are half of this business equation and agreed to this site's "Terms of agreement" "50%", Maybe, just maybe, we might have a say in this. I say "NO" to a commission reduction. I can not pull my portfolio because I am disabled and really need this little bit of extra income, but my heart will no longer be in it. |
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Canon Eos 400D, Samsung S850( always with me) trip...
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Uploaded files:2502 | Total Sales: 13474
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Message posted at 08/12/2009, 21:55:42 PM by Bradcalkins |
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| Originally posted by Irisangel: |
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| Quoted Message: I am missing the point of exclusivity. It makes no sense that certain sites reward this with a higher commission, How much of an impact does this have on which images a buyer downloads. Unless the buyer wants to use an image as a company logo that they plan to designate as a trademark, they can purchase an extended license and be done with it. This whole thing is confusing me. An exclusive image can have 100 Dls, then someone buys the rights, does that mean that the 100 other people who already downloaded the image can no longer use the image on their website or company letterhead ? Will they all of a sudden be subject to copyright infringement? I simply do not understand this concept. |
If you submit to multiple sites including DT, then they all must compete with the sames images for the same customer. If a site has exclusive contributors they can market those images and they will appear fresher to a buyer that the ones available anywhere. If all the sites are competing to sell the same images then they can only compete on pricing and the site features themselves (search engine, etc.). If they have images exclusive to the site then that differentiates them in a competitive market. It is the competing with other sites that have exactly the same images that I feel drives the royalties down as we are seeing...
Just my opinion though!
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Canon 7D, various prime and L series lenses
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Uploaded files:2574 | Total Sales: 14632
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Message posted at 08/12/2009, 22:06:54 PM by Irisangel |
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Hi Brad , I appreciate your taking the time to answer my post. I do understand the concept of competition, but this is the part I really don't get:
An exclusive image can have 100 Dls, then someone buys the rights, does that mean that the 100 other people who already downloaded the image can no longer use the image on their website or company letterhead ? Will they all of a sudden be subject to copyright infringement? I simply do not understand this concept.
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Canon Eos 400D, Samsung S850( always with me) trip...
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Uploaded files:2502 | Total Sales: 13474
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Message posted at 08/12/2009, 22:18:12 PM by Bradcalkins |
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| Originally posted by Irisangel: |
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Quoted Message: Hi Brad , I appreciate your taking the time to answer my post. I do understand the concept of competition, but this is the part I really don't get:
An exclusive image can have 100 Dls, then someone buys the rights, does that mean that the 100 other people who already downloaded the image can no longer use the image on their website or company letterhead ? Will they all of a sudden be subject to copyright infringement? I simply do not understand this concept.
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I agree with you on that front - that is why I think of being exclusive as more of a market share tool, not for the buyers in terms of being the only one to have an image. I don't see buying the rights to an image with downloads unless the price is far cheaper than paying for repeated copy licenses (say you wanted to print 1,000,00 copies) - but then, I'm not a buyer! |
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Canon 7D, various prime and L series lenses
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Uploaded files:2574 | Total Sales: 14632
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Message edited at 08/12/2009, 23:23:32 PM by Red |
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Irisangel, An image only becomes exclusive after it has been downloaded by that buyer, not all buyers that came before, per the wording here -
About our images
Sell the Rights (SR-EL) - this license represents a full ownership of the downloaded image. The buyer can use it exclusively (exclusivity applies from the moment that the file was downloaded using this license)...
DT tracks when each image was downloaded so when someone purchases the rights they cannot come back and claim copyright infringement on the use of that image by another buyer if that image was purchased before it became exclusive. I know it sounds confusing but the buyer can see how many times an image has already been downloaded, so if they purchase exclusivity they take the chance that the image is already in use. As soon as they download it, it goes out of circulation but it may already be in use. That's the chance they take. Image exclusivity is not retroactive. |
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Uploaded files:101 | Total Sales: 1165
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Message posted at 08/12/2009, 23:07:52 PM by Irisangel |
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I know that a lot of the biggest contributors on this site do not check the message boards on a daily basis. Is there a plan to send a notification to the entire community to inform them that, if they are not exclusive here, they are about to receive a big cut in their commissions? Considering the fact that you are drastically changing the terms of the agreement that we all agreed to. (50% commission) Slipping this huge change in terms to us via the message boards is like the congress slipping 350 new pages to the stimulus package at 3:00 in the morning the day before the vote. |
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Canon Eos 400D, Samsung S850( always with me) trip...
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Uploaded files:2502 | Total Sales: 13474
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Message posted at 08/12/2009, 23:34:14 PM by Eastwestimaging |
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I've just done a similar analysis to Phil (I won't post the Maths here unless people want me to) and based on my last 250 downloads my income would drop from $303.15 to $229.30 which is a 24% decrease in earnings. I find it very difficult to be positive about this at all. |
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Nikon D3 + 14-24mm/28-70mm/70-200mm/85mm/50mm/
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Uploaded files:7717 | Total Sales: 25285
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Message edited at 08/13/2009, 00:38:07 AM by Fleyeing |
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@Lisa: that silver lining is very thin. The subs will become more expensive for buyers if they are level 3-5, but those levels are very rare, at least for me: 7 (not counting the exclusive images) out of 897. And they still will stay 0.35$ for maximum size. Even if they count double, it won't make much difference for 7 out of 897.
Since DT is a "slow" site where images have to mature at least a year to reach higher levels, for a regular uploader, the vast majority of the sales will be level 1 images. This effectively means a 60% pay cut from 50 to 30%, close to the % of "that" site whose 20% we love to hate. So, in fact DT will become just another big site, not the site we liked to love for its 50%. Fine, since this is just business anyways, and we should draw business-based conclusions from it.
Only 2 of my images of the past year reached level 2. I have about 140/897 images on level 2 and higher, but most are old. That means that the vast majority I would upload the coming year would be sold with a commission of 30% and not 50%.
@Stuartkey: yes you can not have the cake and eat it, but an independent can have smaller pieces of more pies and try to maintain his income that way. As a few sites that decreased the contributor's income play the divide and conquer game with us, we can play it with them too.
The exclusive images of non-exclusive contributors earn just peanuts more: 33% against 60%. Yes Lisa, it makes no sense any more to participate with top images in the assignments and freeze that image from sales on other sites. Of course it could still pay off to participate with good but B images just for the exposure.
I will start to disable my exclusive images slowly anyways, that's one of the lessons to take. They can earn more when spread out over 11 sites. And then let's just see how total income here will evolve. Just take it easy, but for new shots with a 21MP Canon at 30% commission, I don't know yet. Time will tell. |
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Canon 5DMKII, 24-70, 70-200, strobes
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Uploaded files:1236 | Total Sales: 3894
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Message posted at 08/13/2009, 00:35:06 AM by Fleyeing |
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| Originally posted by Eastwestimaging: |
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| Quoted Message: I've just done a similar analysis to Phil and based on my last 250 downloads my income would drop from $303.15 to $229.30 which is a 24% decrease in earnings. I find it very difficult to be positive about this at all. |
I took 2 hrs to do some math too, just based on the 50 last. It would mean a serious drop of income on DT. Luckily DT is not the only fish in the sea. |
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Canon 5DMKII, 24-70, 70-200, strobes
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Uploaded files:1236 | Total Sales: 3894
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Message edited at 08/13/2009, 02:16:08 AM by Admin |
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When doing this math, please referr to the thread mentioned in my initial post. The change in royalties was planned along with that, we just delayed it in order to allow revenue to grow so you will not be affected too much. So if you do the math, include this price change. That will already get you on a positive side, or at least close to being even.
With the extra budget Dreamstime can attract more buyers. All our buyers are recurring and continue to purchase throughout the next years. What you may lose now (though I said it will be done gradually) will be quickly absorbed and you will see your revenues growing.
Then, when criticizing Dreamstime for its approach, I remind you that for 5 years we've kept a royalty of 50% for all non exclusives against 20% which was the minimum of the industry. The agency awarding you 20% had bigger prices than us and lower commissions. Which means better budgets to drive traffic. We continue to keep the highest royalties. And we award you 60% instantly (no threshold) if you become exclusive with us. Honestly, I think that you either need to be exclusive with us or direct your critique somewhere else.
I do value your understanding, it's after all a decrease. You don't have all the stats we work with, but do trust us. We've been through similar debates in the past. Remember the discussion we had when we cut the bonuses from a max. 80% to a real 50-60%? No one ended up losing, most people enjoyed great months after that announcement and higher RPD.
There are some good remarks in this thread and we will keep them in mind. Even if they can't be integrated right away they worth being explored later. |
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Nikon D300 / Nikon N80 | Nikon 10.5mm f/2.8G ED AF DX Fishey...
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Uploaded files:2669 | Total Sales: 21470
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Message posted at 08/13/2009, 02:31:23 AM by Cidepix |
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Additional format deserves to be treated better than XS size. |
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Uploaded files:528 | Total Sales: 4991
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