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Message posted at 10/30/2009, 05:09:15 AM by Digitalg |
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Serban,
You're not even addressing the issue we are talking about here. And that concerns me because it may be a sign that you (DT) have your mind made up and will not be considering other options.
The question here boilds down to this: If contributers do nothing (default option) some of their images will end up free because DT only decided so. Is this against the contributer's agreement that both parts agreed to?
If it is you just can't do it that way. Is it? Or is it not? This is a direct question without any acusation implicit.
I was one of the first raising that issue and by now I would expect a clear answer to that. But you keep answering (some) overreacted acusations on the same level and you are really not helping to bring this down to what really matters.
I don't have any reason to think you're doing this to cheat on anyone. I don't think that at all. But this may be a bad move, I'm talking legally a bad move. More than once you've said we don't have the numbers. Some people won't have faith that things are the way you say it just because you say it. I have my own opinion, but that does not matter here. What matters is that there are thousands of contributers and one is enough to cause you problems if you won't take care of the legal issue. And if you really wan't to go around the legal issue without solving it you really need to be more convincing, and showing those numbers might be an argument of value.
For last, I won't be writting more about this, and I will also not be a problem for DT.
Regards
| Originally posted by Achilles: |
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Quoted Message: You don't have any numbers but you prefer to make speculations. Each thing we launched (assignments, subscriptions, news, editorial, initial free section, keymasters, flags, suggested keywords, sr-el just to name a few) brought discussions like this one. That the world will never be the same. Very healthy debates, up to the point where we get accused for something we didn't do. These attacks affect our image and they will not be tolerated.
This thread has reached the point where users will use speculations instead of arguments. And whenever someone disagrees, let's call him unethical, a thief or a dabbler.
If the discussion continues this way, the thread will be locked. We want to hear your thoughts as long as you act civilized. |
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Reflex bodies: Pentax K-5 and Pentax LX
Lenses: Pentax ...
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Uploaded files:336 | Total Sales: 408
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Message posted at 10/30/2009, 05:45:53 AM by Achilles - member is an admin |
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Defaulting to free is the same as defaulting to delete or to keymasters. None of these actions applies to all contributors nor were decided by them in advance. You may prefer to disable the image, while another person will prefer to donate it or to rekeyword.
Our agreement regards licensing images and the RF-LL license comes with some serious requirements. It's not just giving away content, it is licensing. And once again no one is forcing you to do anything. You are free to decide what is best for you.
This is why the announcement with 30 days in advance. Want more time to think than that? Sure, it can be done. Someone said that they may be travelling for 30 days. We can definitely extend this to 3 months.
As a side note, the number of donated images so far (no action from our side) exceeds our expectations. We might be forced to switch to disable by default or to review these images and default according to the quality of the file. A cleanup of the free database is also in works.
On a similar subject, because the ethics of this was brought up. We are now licensing a new file every 2-3 seconds on the site overall. The free section generates a high amount of traffic that in many cases ends up on the commercial database, helping other contributors.
We're considering to boost the search placement of photographers who donated free images in return for their gesture. Not a big boost, but for images with same relevancy and same quality factors, the author who donated free images will be displayed first. This is still under development and will be integrated only if it doesn't affect the relevancy. I believe it's only fair to people who donated work. |
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Nikon D300 / Nikon N80 | Nikon 10.5mm f/2.8G ED AF DX Fishey...
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Uploaded files:2669 | Total Sales: 21462
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Message posted at 10/30/2009, 05:46:23 AM by Cleaper |
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Hi Achilles - do you not think that it will work the same to have the default set to delete/disable instead of donate right from the outset? This way the contributors will be kept happy because the choice is still with them and also you will probably still get many people donating images for free (by choice) anyway? There are just too many implications if you set the first default to donate.
Also, what do you think about the free section getting too large if many images are donated? Do you think that this will detract from the main database as the images available will be up to high standard (well they should be!). I agree that the free section is a great marketing tool (I myself donate regularly) but if it is too large won't people just go there instead of buying from the main database? Just a thought. |
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Olympus E-30, dSLR + 12-60mm Olympus Zuiko f2.8-4.0, 70-300m...
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Uploaded files:641 | Total Sales: 1313
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Message posted at 10/30/2009, 05:48:49 AM by Cleaper |
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Sorry - I wrote the above before you posted your last comment Achilles so you may have already answered the question! |
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Olympus E-30, dSLR + 12-60mm Olympus Zuiko f2.8-4.0, 70-300m...
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Uploaded files:641 | Total Sales: 1313
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Message posted at 10/30/2009, 06:17:13 AM by Achilles - member is an admin |
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@Cleaper: Charlotte, my personal opinion is that users complaining about the default action are in fact worried about the increase of the free database and your post confirms that. It's not really to which action we default.
Do you see any kind of monetization done on the free image area? Anything that would help the agency without helping contributors? There are no ads there but there are bandwidth costs. Just as there are reviews and other expenses. But nothing would be more serious than erosion of the commercial database. This is why we do monitor this section and part of the reasons why cleaning the free database will eventually happen. Will it grow? It will certainly will. How much? As much as possible without eroding the commercial database.
And to put it differently. Let's assume you have images that sit with no downloads and will never sell (resembles how microstock started). Let's assume you know for sure that if you give them for free the rest of the portfolio will receive some sales. Would you delete them or not? Disregarding other sites, let's assume they didn't sell there either. Would you rather delete them? |
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Nikon D300 / Nikon N80 | Nikon 10.5mm f/2.8G ED AF DX Fishey...
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Uploaded files:2669 | Total Sales: 21462
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Message edited at 10/30/2009, 06:34:58 AM by Cleaper |
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Thanks Achilles.
To be honest I actually like donating images to the free section and do so on occasion as I feel it helps with marketing my own portfolio. So to answer your question I would probably donate my images. I think it was just a question of having a choice to do this - it should be in the contributors hands. Also, some of my images I wouldn't like to donate and I would like to be selective so that's why I said it would be better to have the default as delete/disable - so it is the contributors choice. I think that us contributors are "complaining" (as you say) because it looked as if that initial choice had been taken away from us. If that is not the case then thats is fine.
I know that the free database is there as a marketing tool to help Dreamstime as a whole to increase sales and traffic and wasn't for a moment implying that there was monetary gain on that site for Dreamstime (other than the extra traffic to the main database) so apologies if this is how you took it but I was just asking if this free database would one day detract from the main one. You have answered this for me and if it is constantly monitored then hopefully it will continue to bring buyers to the main site. |
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Olympus E-30, dSLR + 12-60mm Olympus Zuiko f2.8-4.0, 70-300m...
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Uploaded files:641 | Total Sales: 1313
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Message edited at 10/30/2009, 09:17:21 AM by Stuartkey |
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Uploaded files:565 | Total Sales: 6972
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Message edited at 10/30/2009, 09:18:21 AM by Stuartkey |
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| Originally posted by Achilles: |
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| Quoted Message: We're considering to boost the search placement of photographers who donated free images in return for their gesture. Not a big boost, but for images with same relevancy and same quality factors, the author who donated free images will be displayed first. This is still under development and will be integrated only if it doesn't affect the relevancy. I believe it's only fair to people who donated work. |
I really think it would be wrong to penalize contributers who have not donated any free images, by affecting their search result placement.
My personal opinion is that the prices on microstock are already tiny, especially for the quality of work available. If images cost hundreds of dollars each, fair enough... give some images for free to 'help' the community and give buyers a bonus. But not when we're virtually giving it away as it is.
Needless to say, should I have to make the decision to delete, donate or pay for re-keywording, it will be delete.
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Uploaded files:565 | Total Sales: 6972
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Message edited at 10/30/2009, 09:53:12 AM by Warrenpricephotography |
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| Originally posted by Achilles: |
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Quoted Message: @Cleaper: Charlotte, my personal opinion is that users complaining about the default action are in fact worried about the increase of the free database and your post confirms that. It's not really to which action we default.
Do you see any kind of monetization done on the free image area? Anything that would help the agency without helping contributors? [b]There are no ads there but there are bandwidth costs. [/b]Just as there are reviews and other expenses. But nothing would be more serious than erosion of the commercial database. This is why we do monitor this section and part of the reasons why cleaning the free database will eventually happen. Will it grow? It will certainly will. How much? As much as possible without eroding the commercial database.
And to put it differently. Let's assume you have images that sit with no downloads and will never sell (resembles how microstock started). Let's assume you know for sure that if you give them for free the rest of the portfolio will receive some sales. Would you delete them or not? Disregarding other sites, let's assume they didn't sell there either. Would you rather delete them? |
[b]There are no ads there but there are bandwidth costs. [/b]
The news release about your Huge Free Image collection is posted on another forum, Achilles. There does seem to be a reason for obstinately hanging to the FREE default.
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Nikon, Canon and Panasonic cameras; Nikon, Canon and Tokina ...
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Uploaded files:876 | Total Sales: 690
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Message edited at 10/30/2009, 10:26:10 AM by Fleyeing |
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| Originally posted by Achilles: |
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| Quoted Message: We're considering to boost the search placement of photographers who donated free images in return for their gesture. |
Ah. Now we are cutting to the bone. Donate, or else... This is new.
In fact, according to a Reuters press release a short while ago, free images on DT will serve the company to increase market share. That's fine for the exclusives, but for the independents, it doesn't matter whether an image is sold by site A or by site B since it's a zero sum operation. The softly spoken threat of "donate or else", together with the commission cut are a very ominous handwriting on the wall. Just wait and see...
As to the topic: getting rid of these images is a great idea. Mine 25 or so that were culled out were so bad according to nowadays standard, that I wouldn't even dream to give them for free or have my name attached to it. We came a long way since 2005... |
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Canon 5DMKII, 24-70, 70-200, strobes
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Message posted at 10/30/2009, 10:19:34 AM by Nikitu - member is an admin |
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Warrenpricephotography, the choice to donate or not is yours, no one will force you or other photographers to give images to the free section.
I am a contributor and admin here and have donated most of my old images to the free section before the clean up came to discussion. No one forced me too, it was of my own choice. I did get downloads because of those free images. Some of them I chose to delete later on, others are still at the free section.
There is no conspiracy theory here, it's simple, microstock databases at all agencies are growing each day, old files will not be downloaded if they were not downloaded till now, they are just cluttering the database, not to mention that 95% of the time the quality of those files is questionable to today's standards.
Other than that, people will have plenty of time to consider their decision and I am sure some will choose to donate, others won't but that's a matter of personal choice.
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Canon 550d, Canon 40d, Canon G10, Canon 20d, Canon 300v ...
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Message edited at 10/30/2009, 10:50:50 AM by Fleyeing |
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| Originally posted by Nikitu: |
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| Quoted Message: I am a contributor and admin here and have donated most of my old images to the free section before the clean up came to discussion. No one forced me too, it was of my own choice. |
As an employee of DT you can hardly be credible in this peculiar matter, I'm sorry. ;-)
Sure we won't be forced, but we will end up with a worse rank in the search engine. Where is the difference between pressure and soft force?
"but that's a matter of personal choice"
It can also be a matter of personal pride. The cleaning per se out is a great idea since (in my case at least) the culled images were sub-standard. I'm glad they disappeared and not offering them for free is not an act of any "vengeance" towards DT but rather of pride. I don't want to be associated with those images any more. |
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Canon 5DMKII, 24-70, 70-200, strobes
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Uploaded files:1236 | Total Sales: 3892
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Message posted at 10/30/2009, 10:37:15 AM by Warrenpricephotography |
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| Originally posted by Nikitu: |
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Quoted Message: Warrenpricephotography, the choice to donate or not is yours, no one will force you or other photographers to give images to the free section.
I am a contributor and admin here and have donated most of my old images to the free section before the clean up came to discussion. No one forced me too, it was of my own choice. I did get downloads because of those free images. Some of them I chose to delete later on, others are still at the free section.
There is no conspiracy theory here, it's simple, microstock databases at all agencies are growing each day, old files will not be downloaded if they were not downloaded till now, they are just cluttering the database, not to mention that 95% of the time the quality of those files is questionable to today's standards.
Other than that, people will have plenty of time to consider their decision and I am sure some will choose to donate, others won't but that's a matter of personal choice.
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Why was that directed at me, Nikitu? Would you mind quoting my mention of donating or being forced?
Maybe you were talking about the objections of MANY contributors???
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Nikon, Canon and Panasonic cameras; Nikon, Canon and Tokina ...
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Uploaded files:876 | Total Sales: 690
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Message posted at 10/30/2009, 10:41:15 AM by Achilles - member is an admin |
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| Originally posted by Warrenpricephotography: |
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Quoted Message:
The news release about your Huge Free Image collection is posted on another forum, Achilles. There does seem to be a reason for obstinately hanging to the FREE default.
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The press release was serviced on Oct. 29, while this was announced on our forums on Oct. 20. You are wrong assuming we sent that first and informed our community afterwards. |
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Nikon D300 / Nikon N80 | Nikon 10.5mm f/2.8G ED AF DX Fishey...
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Uploaded files:2669 | Total Sales: 21462
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Message edited at 10/30/2009, 10:59:43 AM by Stuartkey |
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| Originally posted by Nikitu: |
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| Quoted Message: I did get downloads because of those free images. |
How do you know that, for a fact?
If it can be proved, then maybe it would help people make an informed decision about donating.
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Uploaded files:565 | Total Sales: 6972
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Message posted at 10/30/2009, 10:58:49 AM by Fleyeing |
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The chronology is not that important, but the announced boost in search rank for contributors with freebees is. The culled images were sub-standard in most cases. Why not take a more positive approach and instead reward contributors that upload current-standard images exclusively? I know it's done by the assignments, but why not generalize the principle? The carrot often works better than the stick. |
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Canon 5DMKII, 24-70, 70-200, strobes
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Uploaded files:1236 | Total Sales: 3892
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Message posted at 10/30/2009, 11:04:40 AM by Clarsen55 |
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My goodness people...you need to CHILL! Paranoia is running rampant. The Dreamstime administration team has brought this site to an amazing level of success in the four years I have been here. They come up with endless new innovations/developments that enhance the site for user and contributor in a wonderful balance which has benefited both. Our job as contributors is to upload quality work which they can successfully promote. This very benign round of cleanup is another benefit to ALL users! An image that hasn't sold even one download in four years needs to GO! And YOU can decide where it goes...it's your choice. Let's keep moving forward and not get bogged down in these accusations directed at Dreamstime. They have made great decisions in the past which have proven extremely successful...and are always available for open discussion...much more than any other microstock site. On other sites, this action would have just happened...no discussion. I still believe that most contributors are applauding the database cleanup and would like to see it extended in the future. If you're not happy here...go somewhere else and see if it is better for you and your portfolio. |
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Uploaded files:863 | Total Sales: 27481
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Message posted at 10/30/2009, 11:20:02 AM by Bradcalkins |
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| Originally posted by Achilles: |
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| Quoted Message: We're considering to boost the search placement of photographers who donated free images in return for their gesture. Not a big boost, but for images with same relevancy and same quality factors, the author who donated free images will be displayed first. This is still under development and will be integrated only if it doesn't affect the relevancy. I believe it's only fair to people who donated work. |
I notice that if you search in the free section of the site that it currently promotes images (Commercial RF) from contributors who HAVEN'T donated anything. It would certainly make sense in the free part of the site to give a boost to images from those who've donated, or limit it to only images from contributor's who have donated... |
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Canon 7D, various prime and L series lenses
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Message posted at 10/30/2009, 11:43:52 AM by Sharpshot |
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Why not give those that donate free images free credits or pay them a small amount? Boosting them in the search penalizes those of us that don't want to donate free images. Can someone please tell me how that is fair? |
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Canon 550D
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Uploaded files:1112 | Total Sales: 5656
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Message posted at 10/30/2009, 12:15:12 PM by Achilles - member is an admin |
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I didn't say we will do that, I've said we are considering it. Most of the persons complaining above are missing the big picture, that this is a community based website. Community means something more than just a forum.
The debate reached the flaming point so we should all cool off for a while. I'm closing this thread and will revive it if any updates need to be posted. |
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Nikon D300 / Nikon N80 | Nikon 10.5mm f/2.8G ED AF DX Fishey...
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Uploaded files:2669 | Total Sales: 21462
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