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Adobe Camera Raw Causes Noise?

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Enigmacypher
423 posts
71
Message posted at 06/10/2012, 22:39:10 PM by Enigmacypher
I've been playing with Adobe Camera Raw 6.7 recently, and I've been disappointed to see digital noise introduced into the images when I use this tool. Has anyone else run into this? Do you know how to avoid the problem?


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Igordabari
3335 posts
62
Message posted at 06/10/2012, 22:57:58 PM by Igordabari
Digital noise comes from digital sensor. There is more noise when ISO is higher, there is more noise when exposure time is higher, there is more noise when environment temperature is higher (since it's thermal noise). Software does not introduce any noise (except for special filters).
I, me, myself + cameras: Canon 450d (for astrophoto...

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Enigmacypher
423 posts
71
Message posted at 06/11/2012, 00:34:11 AM by Enigmacypher
This is definitely being added by the software. When I open the image (for this experiment, I'm using Adobe Photoshop Elements 10), it goes into Camera Raw 6.7. If no changes are made here, and I select "Open Image" the raw image opens in Photoshop for editing with-out the noise. If I instead make a couple of adjustments while in Camera Raw (such as setting everything to "Auto") and then select "Open Image", a large number of aberrations appear in the image. I'm sure others have run into this, and I am curious what your thoughts are on the matter.


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Twindesign
92 posts
<10
Message posted at 06/11/2012, 02:32:56 AM by Twindesign
I think you are not using the software correct and are mistaking. Your camera processes the noise for you. When you shoot RAW it is not processed and you get the raw image without the noise removal. How much noise you want to remove is now up to you. If you open the image in Adobe Raw then you have to remove the noise with the noise reduction tool. Go to the tab 'detail' and shift 'luminance' to the right. You will see the noise disappear. Don't shift it to far because this will make it look unnatural. Play with the sharpness and luminance until you get the right combination. You will be surprised how great this works! In my opinion you will always end up with less noise shooting in RAW than jpg.

I always shoot in raw and never want to go back to jpg. Once you get the hang of it you will stay with RAW! :)

Good luck! :)
Nikon D7000 and 7100.

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Igordabari
3335 posts
62
Message posted at 06/11/2012, 03:07:57 AM by Igordabari

Originally posted by Enigmacypher:
Quoted Message: This is definitely being added by the software. When I open the image (for this experiment, I`m using Adobe Photoshop Elements 10), it goes into Camera Raw 6.7. If no changes are made here, and I select "Open Image" the raw image opens in Photoshop for editing with-out the noise. If I instead make a couple of adjustments while in Camera Raw (such as setting everything to "Auto") and then select "Open Image", a large number of aberrations appear in the image. I`m sure others have run into this, and I am curious what your thoughts are on the matter.


I am quite agree with Twindesign. It seems that something is wrong with your way of usage Camera Raw. It's not a trivial task to add noise that would look as a real noise and it is not worth for developers to solve this problem, be agree.

RAW format gives 2 main advantages: 1) No compression (that means that no information is lost); 2) Much more accurate (13 or 14 bits instead of 8 for JPEG) brightness coding. Both these gives you an opportunity to supress noise which arrives from thermal effects on the sensor.
I, me, myself + cameras: Canon 450d (for astrophoto...

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Enigmacypher
423 posts
71
Message posted at 06/11/2012, 09:40:46 AM by Enigmacypher
The advantages to using the RAW images are very evident. My problem is with the "Camera Raw 6.7" software (or more likely, as you say, my usage of it).

Twindesign seems to have pointed me toward at least part of the solution. The Detail tab seem to be the source of the problem (and the solution). Adjusting the Luminance to the right as suggested definitely helps. The default amount of Sharpening also seems to be too high. Pulling this back to the left reduces the "digital noise" that I am seeing introduced by the tool. I'm still not thrilled with the results I'm seeing since just a few changes still give me an overprocessed, noisy, and grainy looking image. (Well, the effect might look fine when printed on canvas, but not for most things.) I'll keep playing with settings and see if I can get something more natural looking.


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Afagundes
3241 posts
<10
Message posted at 06/11/2012, 10:20:10 AM by Afagundes
i am using ACR 7.1, so I am not sure all those commands are available for you, but, Enigmachypher, you have add some masking in the detail tab otherwise it will pop up the noise specially in the sky.

My workflow:

I open the image in adobe camera RAW, I set the adjustment for correction of the lens in the Correction Lens TAB.

Than I go to the details tab, zoom to 100%, move the image to a place where you can find a surface that doesnt need sharpening, like the sky, press ALT (the image goes into black and white) and adjust the masking until this surface goes black. You will imediately see that the aparent noise of the sky will disappear.

Than I adjust the sharpness also pressing the ALT key

I hope this helps.
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Adpower99
906 posts
69
Message posted at 06/11/2012, 13:20:36 PM by Adpower99
Even at low ISOs, one way that noise is often introduced is by increasing the exposure during processing. It's very likely that that's what's causing your problem. If you find yourself having to increase the exposure almost every time you process an image, perhaps you should consider increasing the Exposure Value (EV) Compensation on your camera, assuming you're using a DSLR. Some cameras have a natural tendency to either slightly over- or underexpose photos consistently and the EV Compensation can be used to help with that problem. If you don't have to adjust your exposure in post-processing, you minimize the possibility of noise.

For more information on EV Compensation, just Google it. If you have any questions about how to adjust it on your camera, it should be covered in your user's manual.
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Afagundes
3241 posts
<10
Message posted at 06/11/2012, 14:49:26 PM by Afagundes
Adpower99 added another important issue here, if you are boosting the shadows, noise will show up.
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Parkinsonsniper
1086 posts
72
Message posted at 06/12/2012, 09:13:40 AM by Parkinsonsniper
Do not touch the "auto" button! :))) it always ruins everything. I mean if you click auto button and get noise, it is pretty expected.

Almost every change you make creates noise but it is barely visible most of the times. Maybe you can mail me the raw file and processed jpeg, so that I can see what's going on and help you with an exact solution :)
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Mike2focus
416 posts
74
Message posted at 06/13/2012, 22:49:21 PM by Mike2focus
Thanks for the great info on RAW noise reduction everybody! I try to shoot the best exposure possible to keep from having to boost the exposure in Camera Raw and I usually only bump the Luminance up to +10. That one small adjustment to Luminance can make such a huge difference in the noise. I think the trick with Camera Raw is to not go overboard on any of the adjustments.
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Parkinsonsniper
1086 posts
72
Message edited at 06/14/2012, 01:46:16 AM by Parkinsonsniper
I have noiseless shots processed at +80 fill light, +100 contrast and -2 Exposure, lots of curves playing and +80 sharpening and only 10-15 luminance NR. If you know how to handle the information buried in RAW, you can create very interesting combinations.

I don't think +10 luminance will create that much of noise. There must be something different...did you check the raw settings. It is right under the preview image, a blue underlined line. It generally says "16 bit 240dpi 12mp Adobe RGB" etc etc bla bla...click on it and check the "sharpening" setting.
- 2x Nikon D300 - Olympus e-PM1 - Nikkor 20mm f2.8 ...

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Mike2focus
416 posts
74
Message posted at 06/14/2012, 06:36:13 AM by Mike2focus
Parkinsonsniper, sorry, I wasn't explaining myself well in my previous post. What I meant when I said the +10 in Luminance makes a huge difference in the noise is that it makes huge difference in a good way!! That's all it takes to remove all the noise in a clear blue sky, for example :-) And now I am going to try the settings you posted and see what that does. Thanks!
Nikon, Adobe and Macintosh

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Parkinsonsniper
1086 posts
72
Message edited at 06/14/2012, 06:57:03 AM by Parkinsonsniper
no no no :)) they are very extreme situations :) trying those settings won't help you...

If +10 luminance NR clears all the noise created by Camera Raw, then there is no problem with the software or your usage of it. Any small change can create that little noise.
- 2x Nikon D300 - Olympus e-PM1 - Nikkor 20mm f2.8 ...

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Enigmacypher
423 posts
71
Message posted at 06/14/2012, 09:26:10 AM by Enigmacypher
I don't think Mike's having the same problems I've been having. From what I'm reading, he's simply saying that using the right adjustments can take care of the noise problems. In his experience, small adjustments are all that are needed.

I must say that this thread has become very helpful and interesting. I've tried your various suggestions, and the images are looking much better than they were before. The problems I was seeing seemed to have been introduced by a combination of the "Auto" features (primarily the exposure being brought up) and a large amount of default sharpening. By only bringing up the exposure and brightness a bit, reducing the amount of sharpening, and adding the luminance noise reduction has GREATLY reduced the problems that I was seeing. On the rather problematic images, I definitely need more than the +10 luminance that Mike mentions, and I sometimes still need to also do selective noise reduction in the image with Photoshop's other tools. However, these last steps are not needed on most images.

Thanks to all of you for giving some great tips on how to use the Camera Raw tool much more effectively than what I was doing.


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Parkinsonsniper
1086 posts
72
Message posted at 06/14/2012, 09:52:16 AM by Parkinsonsniper
Ooppss...I lost the poster of the thread and think it was Mike2focus :)) sorry my mistake...

A small suggestion from me, if you are using Camera Raw's sharpening tab, you should keep the "detail" slider as low as possible because it is about sharpening small details, which includes noise too.
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