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NB! Acceptance policy regarding B&W double uploads

Author Message
Demonike
614 posts
72
Message posted at 02/18/2005, 07:58:40 AM by Demonike - member is an admin
We have encountered an increasing trend of uploading double-images: full color and simple B&W conversion of the exactly same shot.



We do not encourage this emerging practice. In fact, we will start rejecting the B&W counterparts.



We are aware of the artistic values some photos gain via monotone conversion, so we will accept Sepia-tone conversions. And this must be more sophisticated manipulation that just plain Hue/Saturation - monochrome conversion. Using specialty filters to your aid is encouraged.



But please keep in mind, that not all shots benefit from a monochromatic Sepia conversion -- if the subject or the theme of the photo is not supporting sepia, the shot will be refused. I admit, that this decision will be based on somewhat subjective grounds, but will be discussed privately among other admins if need be.



Thank you.
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Mckown
322 posts
Message posted at 02/18/2005, 13:09:24 PM by Mckown
I have always liked B&W better than color and would like to do a lot of it, but is B&W actually wanted much in RF stock images? Why waste time if sales are rare??
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Paulcowan
480 posts
Message posted at 02/18/2005, 14:22:36 PM by Paulcowan
How do you tell the difference between something that is desaturated and then recoloured and something that uses a special filter? Just wondering; I thought PS was meant to be able to mimic sepia.
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Demonike
614 posts
72
Message posted at 02/18/2005, 14:39:26 PM by Demonike - member is an admin
By filters I meant both kinds. Real and digital :)

I'd like to think that B&W sales are low, especially when a colour image is right next to it, since why settle for less if you could get full colour version for the same money?! It would be justified, if the monochrome image were hard to mimic by the downloader himself...
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Paulcowan
480 posts
Message posted at 02/18/2005, 15:30:11 PM by Paulcowan
I don't see the point of B&W or even sepia-tints as stock photos (though I did one, once, long ago - and it does sell sometimes). The designer can do that for himself easily enough.

A B&W scene for an art print, postcard etc. is a different matter; it can be very effective if done well. I assume that most users of stock want to create something out of various elements, not have a finished ready-to-use composition where you just drop in some text which is what an artistic B&W photo is likely to be.
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Achilles
4449 posts
77
Message posted at 02/28/2005, 10:00:09 AM by Achilles - member is an admin
If the file is creatively different than it focuses a different niche of designers. Kutt was refereing to simply desaturate a file and upload as both colour and bw files.

More than this, our system has a tier pricing structure. This should motivate the photographers to diversify as much as possible. If you upload two versions of the same scenery some designers will get them both but most of them will prefer one or the other. This dissipates the sales and you will reach level 2 much slower than if you upload a single file, the best one. It's a matter of personal point of view, some will prefer a larger portfolio....


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Message edited at 03/31/2005, 10:13:56 AM by Cre8tivefocus
well, I am rather miffed at the fact that 3 of my images were just rejected because they were black and white and they were NOT ones that had color counter parts (one was a set)...so now all b/w images are being rejected?? I have a few sets of b/w and color images on another site that encourages this and the b/w outsells the color one 3:1....and I have the 3 images that were rejected on another site and all 3 have sold multiple times. None of my b/w images are simple desaturated images...they are all using specialized b/w filtering actions in PS to mimic real b/w on camera filters (red, orange, green, etc).



here's an example on this site:

http://www.dreamstime.com/field1soccer-image72936

this image has sold 1x since uploading, its color counterpart has not.



As a designer, I look for b/w images a lot because many of my clients cannot afford full color printing and I find that I would rather start off with a nice b/w with good contrast, than desaturate a color one without knowing what the results will be - considering not everything looks good in b/w. I also use a lot of b/w in montage / digital imaging. To me the issue of b/w vs color isn't an issue about "color" its an issue about the effectiveness of the image in a design I am working on. I can't be the only designer out there using them considering the amount of b/w on sites like ********, Comstock, etc (some agencies specialize in B/W only too) - I think this policy is a little short sighted. I am not saying to allow color and b/w versions to go through of the same scene - I can see reasons for not allowing that, but to just completely dismiss b/w ones all together I think is wrong.
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Achilles
4449 posts
77
Message edited at 03/31/2005, 12:30:23 PM by Achilles - member is an admin
First, any statement that is based on "other site does" is not relevant to our community and not objective.



I agree that a b&w picture shouldn't be refused if it's better than a colour one. Most of the times b&w is more creative than colour, especially film.

All image admins have the same opinion and we have many b&w photos online.

The fact that a specific image is better in full colour or desaturated is not agreed by all persons, but a photographer should have a certain level of decision. If you think the b&w file is better, resubmit the shot and ask for a 2nd opinion, including your thoughts on this matter. This doesn't assure inclusion though.

If you have a colour version of the same file one of them must go. You should decide if you go with the desaturated version or the colour one. Don't submit them both.


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Photoshow
504 posts
73
Message posted at 03/31/2005, 14:25:49 PM by Photoshow
Achilles, personally I think this is a rather silly policy. Who cares when a file hits level 2, I am more interested in getting my work into the hands of as many users as possible. If a file is going to be popular enough to reach level 2 (most never will) then it is going to get there in due time with or with out a B&W version competing for the downloads. In fact if the file is popular enough to reach the next level it is also quite possible that the alternative version will also reach the next level in due time. This is a long term business and speaking strictly for myself I am in no hurry.



With many of my images I feel that they are equally useful as color or sepia tones. I have some in the Que right now that I feel have a great old west feel to them as sepias and will be quite useful as such but if I only upload the color versions which also have an inherent usefulness then I feel like I am limiting my sales potential.



Not all buyers have the ability and vision to look at a color image and determine that it would make a great and effective B&W or Sepia image. If I offer them the choice then they have just that, a choice. Choice and diversity are good things. I say let the buy have the choice and let them decide for themselves which version they want.



That said I think there should be some limit to the number of color versions one submits. Once a variation is offered I think that the possibilities of the image become apparent to the buyer and simple color filter or hue adjustments can then be made by the buyer. The creation of a quality B&W or Sepia tone entails far more then clicking on a filter. Often times before the process of converting an image to B&W and then to sepia by using methods such as gradients, and channel adjustments the color version of the image needs to be reworked into something that would actually look poor if left color. IF one were to simply desaturated and tint a image that was optimized for use as a color image they would not get the best B&W or Sepia image that they could get. Again not all buyers have the vision to see the potential of the variation or the skill to make a quality conversion.



So if DT does not want the additional sales that having the sepia versions of selected images in my portfolio then that is fine I will upload no more of them and will delete the pending ones that I can. I am sure that the buyers that want them will come to know that DT is not the place to look for images that are B&W or sepia and as a result will search and will find them on the other sites.



As I said, choice is a good thing and it is something that most every buyer coming here knows that they have. The problem with letting them exercise the choice of searching elsewhere for B&W and Sepia image variations is that you run the risk of loosing that buyer to the competition but, that is a choice that DT as a business will have to make based on this policy.



Peace,

Bobby
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Achilles
4449 posts
77
Message edited at 03/31/2005, 15:08:35 PM by Achilles - member is an admin
We have already discussed all these, please read Demonike's post.

You said it: "That said I think there should be some limit to the number of color versions one submits."



Who cares when a file hits level 2,

Most of the users do, at least the ones that are having assignments enjoy this a lot.



I have some in the Que right now that I feel have a great old west feel to them as sepias and will be quite useful as such but if I only upload the color versions which also have an inherent usefulness then I feel like I am limiting my sales potential.



Yes, we agree, please read Demonike's post: We are aware of the artistic values some photos gain via monotone conversion, so we will accept Sepia-tone conversions.



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Photoshow
504 posts
73
Message posted at 03/31/2005, 16:21:51 PM by Photoshow
Serban, I am not trying to argue with you. Just trying to partake of reasonable discussion with you.
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Webking
362 posts
Message posted at 03/31/2005, 20:11:55 PM by Webking
I think what admin is saying they really don't want too see a Black and White version of a color image just for the sake of a Black and White Version.



They want too see planning and a reason for the conversion. Does the photo offer something different that the color version did not have. Is there something creative about it.



This is just my guess.





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Achilles
4449 posts
77
Message posted at 04/01/2005, 01:00:00 AM by Achilles - member is an admin
You are totally correct. We don't want to receive the same shot in 5 versions (cyan, red, orange, green, sepia and bw). Decide which one is best for you and only upload that one. A second version is possible only if adds somehting new and the designer can't do it himself (easy).


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Demonike
614 posts
72
Message posted at 04/01/2005, 01:34:18 AM by Demonike - member is an admin
For the sake of clarity, if you're going to upload a "mastered" or creative B&W image, please state so in the description field. Somthing like "This is carefully toned and tailored B&W image". So we know that the color image looks very different (even if the bw looks really only desaturated).
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Achilles
4449 posts
77
Message posted at 04/01/2005, 02:04:50 AM by Achilles - member is an admin
As a conclusion. You can submit colour and sepia (IF they are both useful) but you can't submit colour, sepia AND b&w.


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Shirokuma98
138 posts
Message posted at 04/02/2005, 10:50:02 AM by Shirokuma98
Ok please inform me to what is happening regarding black and white.I just recently uploded some black and white , no color or sepia of same image. All images were different but I think they look better in Black and white.

So can I upload just black and white of any images.



So that is y question am I wsting time by submitting just black and white images.

Thanks
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Carolinasmith
38 posts
Message posted at 04/24/2005, 15:03:16 PM by Carolinasmith
OK. Here's a medical twist question. Being on staff at a hospital, I have permission to use any digital radiology files as long as personal information is removed (CT scans, x-rays, angiograms,etc).



The vast majority ARE in black and white, natively.



But I have recently done 'colorized x-rays', which are really different, and which actually highlight the anatomy. Here is an an example of a child swallowing a coin:



http://carolinasmith.com/-/carolinasmith/detail.asp?photoID=650468&cat=7394



Now many conservative folks need/prefer the B&W version, because that is what we are all used to looking at.

But what about the artistic 'colorized' version? I think here, in radiology land, where the photos are hard enough to come by to begin with, both versions would benefit the stock agency/'photographer'/and buyer alike.



Thoughts/response?? :)

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Photoshow
504 posts
73
Message posted at 04/25/2005, 04:20:46 AM by Photoshow

Originally posted by Carolinasmith:
Quoted Message: OK. Here's a medical twist question. Being on staff at a hospital, I have permission to use any digital radiology files as long as personal information is removed (CT scans, x-rays, angiograms,etc).











Is this standard medical practice? I have had a ton of xrays in my life and I don't recall ever signing a release of medical records that allowed the use of my xrays for personal gain! This truly sounds like there would be some huge ethics issues involved here.
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Carolinasmith
38 posts
Message posted at 04/25/2005, 22:06:47 PM by Carolinasmith
Hi,

No issues, and I have researched this carefully. I have clearance from the top at my institution. You can't identify a specific person by looking at a bone or a brain scan... Not much really new under the sun as far as a broken femur, brain aneurysm, etc.



Just like you can't identify a person, where model releases are not required, if you take the picture of the back of the head.



That's the legal side.



As far as ethics go, I do not use the radiology films unless the patient has signed a 'photo release', and at our institution, the patient certainly has the right to opt out. So I do only use 'released' films.



Hope that helps.
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Photoshow
504 posts
73
Message posted at 04/26/2005, 00:58:33 AM by Photoshow
Wow, a radiology clinic that has you sign a photo release, I am completely blown away. I guess on a personal level I would have a problem with it because I see the films as part of my private medical records. On the otherside of it I can see the legal arguments that protect you. Of course as long as the person has signed a release and was truly informed as to what the release was and it was not just a paper in the middle of the stack of medical papers that always have to be signed that no one ever reads and no one ever explains to us then I guess you would be covered anywise.
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